Transforming masculinities

Sabine Nkusi  0:09
Hello, welcome back to season two of the Faith in development podcast brought to you by Tearfund. I am Sabine, your host for this conversation. In our first episode of 2022, we will focus on Transforming Masculinities, which is Tearfund's model for preventing sexual and gender based violence. I will be speaking to my colleague Prabhu Deepan, who is in Sri Lanka, and is the Head of Asia region at Tearfund. Prabhu previously led the Gender and Protection Unit and developed the Transforming Masculinity model, which is now used in over 12 countries worldwide. I hope you enjoy our conversation today.

Good afternoon Prabhu, how are you doing?

Prahbu Deepan  0:58
I mean, it’s good afternoon to you! I'm alright, how are you?

Sabine Nkusi  1:01
I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for for for being here. I'm really excited to be in conversation with you today to discuss Transforming Masculinities, which is Tearfund’s model for preventing sexual and gender based violence. And just to maybe give a little bit of context and background for our audience, we know that one in three women and girls will experience physical violence or sexual violence or even both in their lifetime, and often also at the hand of men. And Transforming Masculinities is really a gender transformative approach for faith communities, where we promote positive masculinities and gender equality as a way to prevent sexual and gender based violence. And this whole approach really uses participatory activities. It's about self reflections, and also scriptural reflections, with faith communities to create and embrace new understandings of what gender is masculinities and gender equality, and all of that through the lens of faith. So welcome, Prabhu, I'd love to ask you, if you can tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you came to be involved in this work of promoting gender equality.

Prahbu Deepan  2:30
Thanks, Sabine. It's exciting to be here. And thanks for inviting me to be part of this conversation. The journey for me has been since childhood. For me, as a child, I saw kind of domestic violence in my household, you know, growing up in a war setting, and seeing violence outside me then seeing violence inside the household, it was kind of really difficult, because I always had the sense of asking for justification, or trying to make sense of things that happen around me. And I think some things doesn't make sense. And some things you are just kind of acting, this is the way it's supposed to be. And I would always intervene when whenever my father would, you know, try to physically assault or hit my mum. And from a young age, I made a decision that I will not be a father, or a man or a husband, like my father. At the time, it was a noble thing. And I think, you know, 10 years ago, you would ask me, and I'm like, that's a great thing. As I've grown older, I've realised that, that doesn't make me a good person, and a good man, it's me comparing myself to possibly the worst out there, you know, and saying, I'm a good person. And over the years, my personal journey has been in trying to explore what that alternative could look like, what does the ideal, you know, man, a human being, could look like, that's not just decided on based on the use of violence, but really, the not use of ones is an outcome of all the internal, you know, beliefs and ideologies and knowledge and attitudes and all of that, that I want to possess. And, you know, beyond that journey, so for me, that was the starting point, trying to really make sense of what is happening around me, and then I'm trying to be on that journey. Sometimes, I guess, for, you know, people calling me out and trying to kind of understand what that meant, you know, you have all the good intentions and really wanting to make a contribution to add that study, again, starting point being so that people like my mom and my sister and other women, you know, trying to do something for somebody else. And then along the way that realising there's a lot that I need to do for myself so that I could be a better person and that could change things around me as a man specifically, right. So when we, in 2013, you know, I had just been working with another international organisation looking at men and white men use violence. I was part of a country study and part of a you know, multi country study across Asia. In the past week, I think that was the kind of eye opening thing for me, I had this personal experience, then in a work setting, because I had been working on young people gender, HIV, etc, for some time now. And then thinking about it was an aha moment. Like, you know, of course, we need to work with men and boys at that time, because at that time, we realised that, you know, we are causing most of the pain, and most of the violence and you know, so you can address gender based violence, when significantly disproportionately in men who use violence against women and girls, it's a male violence issue. So it made a lot of sense. But at that time, I didn't know how there were a lot of different programs that looked at promoting different entry points, whether it's on fatherhood, or caregiving roles, and, you know, household chores and things like that, which particularly didn't resonate with me because I knew my father was a good cook. And, you know, he could have been improved the way or didn't change the way he looked at my mom or, you know, women around him. So that was my starting point, something I was invited to work with Tearfund on, because back then I think you will remember 2011 we started our sexual violence response and as all our responses through the listening excessive exercises with survivors, they were saying, 'What about men? Why are you talking to us?' And then in the spirit of exploring what that could look like for Tearfund, looking at men, masculinities and faith, I was asked to do a series of formative studies and try and see is there something that Tearfund can offer back to the communities that we work with. So, that was the beginning. Yeah.

Sabine Nkusi  6:36
No, thank you. Thank you. For our audience, Prabhu is actually based in Sri Lanka. He is of course still part of Tearfund, but is heading the Asia region, but has previously been part of the gender and Protection Unit. He led that unit for some time, as he was also a leading on this transforming masculinity work. So as I guess, as the architect of this approach of transfer masculinities. I mean, I think you've touched a bit on that. What was really the vision behind it?

Prahbu Deepan  7:12
Yeah, I mean, something just quite accidental for me. In many ways, like, I think I was on my personal journey and trying to at that time, you're trying to do something for Tearfund. And what really happened was something happened for me. And something happened for the men and women that I was part of in conversation with, which I really didn't anticipate. So as part of the formative research, formative research is like, you know, really listening to the communities that we want to work with. And it's purposeful, like we wanted to use that information to design interventions. So that's what usually we call 'formative research'. So I was doing a focus group discussions with men and women, and then also interviewing faith leaders, mostly pastors and community leaders, etc. You know, and in one community, you know, this person tells me Prabhu, how can I be something I have never seen. I have never seen another man, my father be like this. So who is this? What is his alternative that you're talking about? And I realised how important that was to have created visibility to role model to give something for men to aspire towards, and young boys aspire towards. And I think that was really important moment for me. But I think the thing that really kind of anchored this whole trans masculine thing for me is that I realised that the end of these discussions might never come back, because I was, you know, asked to come and do this thing or study for Tearfund. And you know, and I didn't know what was going to happen next. But I thought, like, I'll finish the, you know, part of the research and then I would talk to these men and one on one and say, really try to appeal because it's being on a journey, right? I knew that thought like it is really appealing to other men and women say, this is a journey, this is possible. And I didn't share about my life and things like that. And after six months or so I got invited to go back as part of the wider SGBV kind of review. I remember one of these pastors getting up in front of his congregations and saying, after Prabhu seminar, you know, that is that little bit of the research, he said, I realised I've been raping my wife for 20 years because I've never asked her for consent. And I realised the power transformational power of using reflection scriptures. And it was just the 30 minutes, you know, not to say that he has been transformed writing it just that moment where you become aware of something that you didn't know that you were doing something wrong. At that moment, I knew that we shouldn't use then to accompany men and women, not only men, men and women on a journey that we look at, you know what it means to be that looks at gender norms and the roles but with the hope of promoting equality I think most often we focus on challenging what is harmful, which is really important, but what is the alternative? We needed to give something else so for me force them to journey with men and women share my journey, allow them to share their journeys in a way that could transform people, but at the core are often challenging inequality on this journey. So that was kind of my vision. Sabine Nkusi  10:04   Thank you. But I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the whole process in terms of, you know, are there some key principles to Transforming Masculinities? And also, what are some of the things that are explored during this whole process?

Prahbu Deepan  10:21
Yeah, so for me, I think, you know, it is really around. As I was designing, I realised that obviously, a one day workshop or a three day workshop, or a training period, like even one year thing, wouldn't change people's lives, because we've been socialised in a way all our lives. Everywhere we go, we are told that this is the way you have to be a man or a woman or, you know, however you choose to identify yourself. And those messages are consistent and constant and in every space. So for us, for me, I knew that at that moment, I needed to counter this message in a way as well, but also really exploring ways that we can reinforce positive norms and messages. So I knew at the beginning, the religious leaders were really important, our pastors were really important, not only to use them, as you know, using cell phones, etc, but for them to be on a journey themselves. Because if they believe in equality, then their messages will reflect that their interpretation of the Scriptures, the lens, that preach in the testimonies, all of that will reflect that, for me, that was really important, because a critical component of that is working alongside religious leaders, for them to be on that journey, then to train other men and women in the local group. I knew from the beginning, that it needed to be a conversation with both men and women, creating spaces specifically for men and women separately, and also together so that it's safe enough for us to talk to men and men are able to share their vulnerabilities be called out being held accountable, etc. And the same for women to be affirmed and empowered. You know, I don't use the same tone with men and women both because most often you have interventions that end up making, you know, the men or those who are already surviving violence, you know, feel guilty for what's happened to them. So the last thing I wanted to see is that women now saying I'm sorry, for, you know, me experiencing violence. So really careful about the wedding's around empowering the scriptures that we chose, etc, as well. So that dialogue is really important, because what it meant for me is that this could begin to start a journey where this become day to day part of our lives, this dialogues, these conversations have to happen in every space, outside and beyond our project timelines, and, you know, funding cycles, that was the vision. So that is really critical to the transformation of this intervention, the faith leaders have facilitated dialogue, but also the dialogue process itself, that allows for people to listen together, come together, critically, reflect as a group, hold each other accountable, but also self reflect, practice, come back the next week, you know, continue on that journey. Because I think that that shared journey is really a written key. So that's the process of him. But on the other hand, we really want to anchor the discussions about scriptures, we looked at scriptures that really look people kept repeating through the formative research that I referred to earlier. So we just around creation, you know, so going back to Genesis 126 28, how we were created in the image of the triune, God, and then the fall, and then you know, resurrection, Jesus Christ, and salvation and resurrection, etc. But we also looked at other scriptures that people constantly quote, like, you know, a woman, you shall submit to your husband etc, really trying to re understand what is being said, in that context and what it meant for us. So we use that. And then that is really critical part of that I think you can't take reflections from scriptures, or is the TM and it would, you know, would be in that transformative place in that space, and power. We are not in the business of teaching people how to use their power. Well, this is really around challenging unequal power and status, and working towards dismantling that unequal power system. So really, about how do we talk about power, how we, you know, engage with each other, the dynamics around that, and you know, the power dynamics in gender, etc, etc. So that is really critical to the transformative claims process. The other thing is desperation, Jesus as the role model for Christians who you work with, I think that's a really key thing, where we want to kind of unpack the life of Jesus and the characteristics of Jesus in a way that people can relate to as the ultimate role model for us. I think these are some of the critical reflections and critical part of the process of Transforming Masculinities.

Sabine Nkusi  14:37
Thank you so much. As you were speaking, I was reflecting myself on some of the workshops that I've been part of around transforming masculinities. And as you do certain activities, especially power, you know, people realise they don't understand the power that they have and what they could actually do and how the imbalance of power can act. I wonder if you might maybe be able to speak more into that and what that means for, especially for women, when they're part of that conversation around power. Have you seen anything? And how does that unfold? Do we see resistance for men? How does that work out? Prahbu Deepan 15:21 Yeah, and I think the, the interesting thing, Sabine is that whenever we were designing, and I was, you know, kind of putting together the journey. On the trajectory of the workshops or the discussion, I wanted to make sure that you start with things that people can relate to, from the statistics that we use, the stories that we use are all from what the participants themselves bring. So it's not like, hey, these guys come from somewhere around the world or Sri Lanka, or they most often think I come from the UK because I'm with Tearfund. People look for ways to ‘other’, UN said this is not part of our culture, this gender equality is not enough for us. This gender based violence is, you know, tried to downplay or minimise experience. So when we start the proper conversation, it always starts with what is going on in your community, can you share something and unpack that, we visualise that. So what I was trying to say is when we get to power, it's usually day two. And we've already spoken about how these experiences because nobody there would say, a woman should be beaten or this you know, rape or gang rape or you know, whatever form of violence, very physical, and you know, brutal. They don't justify that in a group setting. But when you start going into emotional violence, marital rape, and other things, then it becomes the caveats start coming. But we try to take them on a journey to make them understand violence, all violence is violence and unacceptable, and how they are linked and rooted in unequal power. So by the time we get to that, you know, they've already been through this conversation, they have already been able to relate to things that happen to them and happen to people around them. And then we are at the point where we want to talk solutions, we want to understand why is this happening? People want to know, why is this happening. And we've made that journey to power. When we say gender inequality, we are talking about unequal power, and equal opportunities, and equal autonomy, mobility, you know, rights, access, all of that the combination of all that, you know, and then we can't address that constantly by trying to maintain status quo, while holding on to power one holding on to power over the other. So we haven't had significant resistance, because we use the the activity that we use for, you know, discussing power is quite interactive, and very visible, like so people experienced that at the moment they lose power in that skipped or, you know, interactive activity, you know, how it feels not to have a voice, not to have a say not to be able to control what you do or what you asked to do. And I think people are able to relate to that, in a way. So most often, I would say, people have come away thinking Oh, my God, this is how we've used people, we've used women or other people who are in our society who have been perceived to have lower status or, or who are vulnerable or discriminated as things and objects, because as they don't have autonomy or a voice. So I haven't had massive resistance. In that case, Sabine, I only think it's because we didn't start talking about power to begin with. We started somewhere else where people are emoting understanding and relating to experiences, you know, that they eat from their local contexts, and close to your heart in many ways. So, yes. Sabine Nkusi 18:35 Thank you. Thank you. So you've talked a bit about the kind of the inception phase inception of Transforming Masculinities. I'd love to hear some of your reflections around where you see the work now, where it has got to any sort of impact it is having.

Prahbu Deepan  18:52
Yeah, I mean, it's been really exciting. I think the most important thing for me is that looking back and saying, oh, you know, this is where I was, and this where I am. And I always think any kind of work that you do has like a two way formula where it needs to change people's lives, but also needs to change you. If one of the things not happening, then the formula is broken. You know, me, I think I feel like I'm a better human being a better father, a better husband better man in that way. And I want to continue being on that. But it's been really exciting to see these other men and women share that sentiment, sad, shattered feeling across the world. And, you know, we're implementing this in one of around 10 countries at the moment, the toolkits are in, you know, from Russian to Portuguese, to Burmese to English, French and Spanish. And so it's really exciting to see that if this resonates, this experience of mine, these experiences of us as men and women, starting in various communities, it resonates with different parts of the world, as different men and women and that's having an impact on their lives. And we have seen this being taken to scale in Nepal, in Nigeria, we know that it's gone beyond just the transit, and talking about interpersonal violence, intimate partner violence to more community violence as well, working with mixed religious groups, as well. And then we've seen in places like Central Asian states where it's really exploring what this could mean like for them. So I think that's really exciting to see that it's more and more the kind of the movement that I was hoping that it will become, it will go beyond just being an intervention, it will become a movement, it will be in our day-to-day conversation. So 1000s of men and women have gone through the process, you know, hundreds of passes have been trained hundreds of gender champions been trained across the 10 to 12 countries. And we've seen, you know, significant reduction of violence in most of the places that we are working in India, we know that in DRC, in the eastern DRC, you need to province in other the work that we've been doing in the 15 villages, we have seen like 60% reduction of intimate partner violence. And the reason study, you know, from Nigeria, that shows like significant reduction of intimate partner violence, but also improvement in social cohesion and trust on multiple communities. So I think it's really exciting to see those stories and numbers. But I think the most important thing has always been sovereignty, when you meet somebody and talk to when they say, Oh, my God, this changed my life, my husband was like this, or I was like this. And I think there's nothing that beats that when you connect to that story, because you can recognise that in you. And he was grateful to be somehow being part of that story. And when I started it, obviously, I was the only one who was training. And you know, there were a couple, you know, from our team were so involved, and we had Reverend Desmond, to see that grow. I think now the vision is to how do we have more men and women who can lead these trainings, who are in connection with one another who are sharing this journey, but also leading other men and women across the world. And in one way to find myself de-centering from that self select process itself. So for me, I think it's been really stepping out of this and seeing other people who resonate with this, and can make it their version of it, things that matter to them in a way that matters to them and tell the stories and tell the work with people in a way that they can relate to people in their community. So I think that's kind of where I want to see this going. And it's really exciting to see the impact that it's having on, you know, people's lives in and around the world. Yeah.

Sabine Nkusi  22:20
Yeah. So as you were speaking, I remember being actually in charge with Uwezo, also Uwezo, who is the Transforming Masculinities Advisor and is part of the Gender and Protection unit. We were in charge and a specific working around the issue of female genital mutilation or cutting and he was facilitating a workshop, the pastor, and taking them through the transforming masculinity approach. And, and I guess one of the things that you do during the whole process is to, so you know, that part about self reflection, there was an exercise that was given to the participant to go home and asked their families with a spouse, what are some of the things that they do, you know, that people are not happy with? And, and I remember, the next day when people came back, and basically the pastor stood up and said, ‘I always thought that I am the best husband, I always thought that I bring in my wife in the decision making in our home. I always thought that I'm a good man. But I went to my wife, I asked her that question.’ At first, she was very surprised that I asked the question, and I was very surprised that she was surprised because I thought, you know, I'm very welcoming. I can, you know, I listened to her.’ But she was very surprised that I asked her that question, because she said that he never listens to her. He never listens to her, he makes all the decisions about what they eat, what they buy, what she needs to wear, decisions around education of children. And he came back and he said, I was so surprised by that, because I thought I was not doing those things. So that kind of self reflection is really important. And yes, and we’ve seen some of that around the world and I wonder if you have particular stories that also come to mind in some specific countries in any of those stories? Prahbu Deepan 24:40 That exercise the next day is always the most interesting thing for me because as a trainer, I also do the same. And I do ask my wife in a number of times that I do the training. I do ask her, you know, Cheryl, is there something and my earliest kind of memories of this man called possible? The next day he was trying to explain to the group, he was in tears and he said, My wife asked me why you asked me this now. It's ask your trainer to kick you. You 14 years we've been married and not a single day. Have you ever asked me why now? And he was just broken. He said, how much have I missed out from this? So how much have I missed out from this? And, and I remember not only those who respond to this question those who don't ask, and I think it's paying attention to those things as well, like men come and say, I didn't ask she was having a headache and all the excuses that they would bring. And I remember asking this Imam why? And he said, pro, I didn't want to ask, because he said, I am unemployed, I don't have an income. And if she, if I ask her, she will say, you never look after me. Or you never buy me clothes? Why do I have to, you know, give you answers to this? And so there is this other burden that you carry. And I realise how sad it is. Because the whole idea of companionship and being in relationship with one another is to be able to share those buttons. You know, and being in that. And I also remember that meeting another pastor, you know, from Central Asian states, and he said, Prabhu, I curse the day I met, you said, I came into this workshop, everything in my life was clear. But you know, I knew what men were supposed to do. Women are supposed to do, I knew the place of women in society. Now, I'm conflicted. I'm grappling with so much I need to change. But I wish I never met you. You know, I think these are things like you hear, you know, you know where that it makes you feel like, this is what you really want. It's not like people, all of a sudden, within three days get transformed, it's people to be on that journey, start to question themselves, question things around them.

Sabine Nkusi  26:25
Thank you. Thank you. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about some of the interfaith work that we have done?

Prahbu Deepan  26:35
Yeah. So I mean, I, you know, I feel like how we resolve conflict is gendered in many ways, and how people take violence and you know, community, etc, is gendered. So if you look at me as a man, there is a certain internalization of, you know, what it means to be masculine. And, and there's a sense of defending honour, whether it's the family or community, so most often, you see young people in mobilising to communal violence, and fighting and defending honour and etc. So, I think, you know, you feel like it's the, it's expected from me, if somebody attacks my house, I will defend them. That's what I'm, you know, and then the same way with the community. So I think one thing, but also like, I think the use of violence, because when you have an imbalanced power, or you don't know how to communicate, dialogue, or negotiate, then you start to use violence as a way of kind of compensating for that. So we see this happening in many communities, across, you know, almost all the communities that we work in with whatever, irrespective of their religious affiliations, etc. So our work in some of DRC, and Nigeria has been involved working with both Christians and Muslims, we've been able to work with our partners who are working with Muslim communities and Muslim religious leaders to mirror the reflections from the Quran and the Hadith for their local communities. And in many ways, and I remember being, you know, in this mosque and this wife, you know, who says, 'My husband will not stop telling I love you to me'. You know, and she's so she's, like, beaming. And for me, at that moment, I realised, this change may seem so insignificant for me, but profound, you know, and I acknowledging that change of all sizes do matter, not to me, but those who are benefiting from that change. So yes, we work with Imams, we take them through the same process, we adapt the process to be culturally sensitive in a way that allows for us to work with Bevier. It's also led by other Islamic leaders, so it's not us who are leading it. But there is an Islamic version of the trans masculine days that uses and it's really adapted to work with Islamic community. And we do work with mix religious communities, as well in Nepal, in other parts of the world, where do we have, you know, mixed religious communities, working with community leaders, etc. The idea is that, I think there's so many ways that we can elevate the things that honour men and women and equality. And we don't need to throw out all of our culture. In order to say we want to promote gender equality, I think what we really need to do is how to redeem parts of our culture that is embedded in inequality. How do we challenge those? How do we really understand, you know, how do we, you know, unpack those so that we can actually, you know, enjoy the fullness of our culture without discriminating men and women discriminating or, you know, starting that's what we really want to do. It's not about you know, I think sometimes people feel very defensive because you come in and say your culture is bad. And as a minority The last thing I want somebody to come and tell me your clutch is bad because I'm trying to preserve it. You know, what I really want to understand is that parts of my culture that you know, is violent towards, you know, people, men and women, violent, oppressive towards women. I want that to be in a challenged so that we can really continue to enjoy the good things that make me who I am And, you know, I think that's kind of the work that we do when we work with other religious communities or other contexts.

Sabine Nkusi  28:25
How have you dealt with let's say, we push back around this work, either be in terms of language, so I can give you an example. I remember, in some of the countries where we were, we've been working and trying to adapt, transfer masculinities and saying transfer masculinity itself, changing and translating that locally meant something else, right.

Prahbu Deepan  30:29
Some people will say, okay, is that gender reassignment? What does that mean? So, yeah, what are some of the pushback that you have faced? And how did you begin to address these challenges

Sabine Nkusi  30:41
I think it's really, in the conversation itself, when people are in the room, there's always very little resistance that come where people are saying, I don't want to change. It's mostly people trying to process it, you know, you know, kind of separate themselves from the, you know, things that they think aren't good. And that's usually okay, that's a part of the journey, right? I think the challenges have always been most often me talking to people who feel like I can't relate to them, because they have a different nationality. And me not being able to communicate that language, and then translating into languages, the toolkits itself, like you were explaining, that already are sensitive in the ways that we, you know, directly translate in order to So doing that in a sensitive way. So we do not lose the meaning of them. So we really want to talk about the quality of you know, both men and women in this conversation. And so in some contexts, where gender has become a sensitive word, because of the debate around sexual orientation, and gender identities, and we really wanted to make sure that we can speak about this in a way that is meaningful for what we're trying to do at that point. And having space to talk about other things like sexuality, gender identities, if people are interested in so that we don't feel massive resistance from groups of people who are not really want ready to talk about in the other conversation. I think the moment you say gender, then people think you're talking about sexual orientation or gender identities. I think the flip side of that is, then we're only talking about this, from binary men and women, you know, so limb being limited to really talking about men and women in this context, where we know there are other gender identities, we experienced gender based violence as well, you know, so I think the challenge is being that, you know, being sensitive about the work that we do in the ways that we translate because they are recognising their existing histories, and not adding fuel to that where we want is a space to start a dialogue and a conversation. So I think that's really important. I think that's always usually overcome by working with the local communities understanding like, for example, in Nigeria, the transformational adaptation was gender based violence, plus focusing on family planning, uptake. And religious leaders said, don't use spend planning, because people associate with negatively they said, use word spacing. So solutions don't need to come from me, really around co creating what is meaningful for people that we are trying to serve, and journey with, without losing their sense of it. So we don't want to assimilate or dilute the meaning it is about gender equality, it's about promoting gender equality, it's about challenging male violence, it's about challenging gender inequality, etc. So I think working around that sometimes can be challenging. The second thing is, obviously, scaling up is difficult when we expect so much from the trainers, we want them to be able to offer themselves, their experiences, you know, their vulnerabilities in a way, because that's what needs work, people reciprocate, you can multiply that thing, you know, we want to train the 1000 people who are willing to be spoken into be called or be held accountable. That's really challenging. So what it means is, we're limited with the number of people who can actually do trainings. And so we really are, you know, because we need to build a movement. So we initially traditionally thought like a trainer processes, that you think you take the approach that because you train somebody, everything's going to be okay. It doesn't actually work that way. Because we really need to be able to genuine people and create a movement of people who are able to do this. So I think that's those are kind of some of the challenges as well.

Prahbu Deepan  34:14
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure to be in conversation with you. It's good to have this conversation. Thanks so much.

Sabine Nkusi  34:22
Thank you. And thanks so much. Thank you for listening. I hope you have been inspired by what probably shared. Our next episode will focus on social norms and gender transformation. My colleague Francesca Quirke will be exploring the role of norms in our gender work. I hope you can join us again. In the meantime, if you want to find out more about our work or catch up on previous episodes of the Faith in development podcast, please visit learn.tearfund.org