How to create a culture of problem solving

Jake Lloyd 0:15
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Hello, I'm Jake Lloyd and welcome to How to build community, a podcast and a radio show brought to you by Tearfund's Footsteps magazine and Arukah Network. How do you create a culture of problem solving, whether in your neighbourhood or your organisation or really any area of life? If you're interested in shaping an environment in which you and the people around you are more able to face problems in a positive way, then this episode is for you. We've gathered together three really interesting people from three different parts of the world to try and find some answers to this question.

Erin Lloyd Rotich 1:05
It takes persistent, courageous people to push those boundaries and then create a sort of safe space to then dream and say, 'Oh, actually, there's a different way possible.'

Jake Lloyd 1:18
That was the voice of Erin Lloyd Rotich from Arkansas in the USA, who has trained organisations on something called Psychological Safety, which, as you'll see here, can be key to creating a culture of problem solving. And joining Erin n this episode is Pranaya Chhetri, who leads Tearfund's work in Nepal. He has many decades of experience in leadership roles for churches and NGOs, and he's involved in something called C, C, T, which is Church and Community Transformation. It's an approach that encourages churches and communities to identify their needs and then work together to address these needs using local resources. And the idea is that this then reduces their dependency on support from outside of a community. And you'll also hear someone who might be a familiar voice if you're a regular listener to this show. Fwangmun Oscar Danladi from Nigeria was a recent guest here on How to build community talking to us about a youth movement he helps to lead and a social enterprise that turns electronic waste into solar panels. And together, Erin, Pranaya, Oscar and I had a fascinating discussion recently on this topic of how to create a culture of problem solving. So keep listening and you'll hear what psychological safety is and why it's a crucial foundation to problem solving in a group. You'll learn why it's important for a group to envision a future beyond some of their most pressing problems. You'll also learn why it's important for leaders to develop things like courage, persistence and curiosity. And finally, you'll also hear why it's important to not be afraid to fail. But that's enough of me talking. Let's get into the conversation. And I began by asking each of my guests to introduce themselves to each other.

Erin Lloyd Rotich 3:20
My name is Erin Lloyd Rotich. I am a clinical counsellor by training, and I have spent the last eight years in Nairobi, Kenya, where I was both counselling individuals and sometimes groups, as well as leading the training for an organisation called Thrive Worldwide. And we trained organisations that needed help in terms of their staff wellbeing and staff care. I come to this topic by way of something I really care about called psychological safety, and I'll talk more about that during the conversation.

Jake Lloyd 4:00
Thanks. Pranaya, tell us about yourself.

Pranaya Chhetri 4:03
Hello, everyone. Greetings from Nepal. I'm Pranaya Chhetri. The Country Director for Tearfund Nepal. I've been actively involved in touch ministry as a lay leader from a young is and also in the development sector since last year 20 years. So my passion is to see church, you know, moving towards community for the holistic transformation. And I'm also the editor of the church. I also served as a youth leader for almost two areas. And now I have handed over that responsibility since a couple of years. Now to my another leader also. And I'm actively involved as a trainer and a supporter of the trust and come to mobilise and process here in Nepal.

Jake Lloyd 4:56
And Oscar, I know you'll be a familiar voice to listeners of this show, but do you want to do want to reintroduce yourselves for the benefit of those who've not heard you before?

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 5:04
Okay. Oscar, Danladi from Nigeria. I work directly as a grassroots activist, but I also walk with a group of young people, which started in 2015 as a movement called the Jos Green Centre. We majorly are concerned about the rise in demography of young people in Nigeria and Africa, and we have committed ourselves to walking around environmental justice and also as a way of creating what we call equal jobs, acquaint apprenticeship and addressing social issues through social enterprises. The movement is growing, growing across the country, and hopefully we're hoping to also reach out to other young people around Africa for a replication project to see how we could replicate what we're doing in our communities.

Jake Lloyd 6:02
Thank you, Oscar. And Erin, I'd love to start with you as we think about this subject, creating a culture problem solving. Do you want to just start by telling us what psychological safety is and how it relates to this question we're asking in this episode?

Erin Lloyd Rotich 6:20
Sure. Psychological safety is actually a relatively new term. If most of the world knows about Google, it was really Google that popular. It popularised the term. It means that you are not afraid to speak up. So psychological safety is a really positive term, but the definition includes some negative words that believe it's the belief that you won't be ashamed or humiliated or embarrassed if you speak up with ideas or maybe even you admit a mistake that you've made or you say something that you're a bit afraid to say. But if you are speaking up in a really safe, a psychologically safe environment, you're not afraid of what will happen if you speak up. So really, it relates to innovation and to problem solving, because you have to you have to create big ideas, right? You have to be unafraid to speak up. And what we know about a problem solving culture is that they're generally really psychologically safe because you have to be able to make mistakes, have kind of big ideas that might sound over simple to some people or crazy to other people. So it's kind of the foundation of the topic we're talking about today.

Jake Lloyd 7:43
Oscar This makes me think of your story of young people getting involved in starting to solve this problem of e-waste. And I remember when we spoke in the previous episode, I think he told me, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think it was that young people are often not listened to, maybe not respected. So much and in the culture. But. But you've helped lead this project in which young people have come up with these really transformative ideas for how to deal with e-waste. I wonder if what Erin says resonates with you and how you helped to create a similar sort of culture with working with young people in a culture where young people perhaps aren't respected and aren't listened to?

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 8:35
Absolutely, Jake. Absolutely. Maybe we did. We didn't invent not being a professional in that area. We didn't even know that was what we're doing. But it resonates with me, particularly because of many years of being marginalised, many years of not being engaged, many years of not being listened to. You know, it sort of pushes, which is what we're dealing with, which is the young people into some sort of an aspirational poverty. That is, they don't have any other aspiration. They are just living for food to wake up in the morning. And all you want to do is just look for what to eat. And I share with you specifically an experience we had with some of the young people. We're trying to sort of inspire them to think big and think out of the box. So we were facilitating this workshop where we were trying to tell these young people, Can you dream big? Can you dream of a different community rather than the presence of your community where it's wrecked by environmental problems, lack of proper waste management, drug addiction and all of that? Can you think of an alternative context of community? Can you have an imagination of a different kind of community? And you could obviously see the anger on the face of one of the young person who approached us and said, Why? Why should we dream? We don't want to dream. Please don't bother dreaming because it doesn't change anything. I would wake up the next morning and my problems will still be there. And again, it brings me to one of the principles I have learned working with is young people. So he has grown over the years to believe that there's nothing he can do to take his community out of poverty. Then here we come in from outside, just trying to tell this young person to think. And he thinks we're coming from a very privileged kind of context. So why should we force him to think and, you know, this forced us to go back and we think about our strategy of coming to try to give these young people heaven on inhale kind of vision. Rather, we learned how to sort of take them both out of their context, let them see the possibilities of what other young people are able to do that sort of inspires them. And then we just simply ask them this visit, what did you see? And I notice it does a lot of magic, so I don't know if that sort of fits into the question, but when she was talking, it sort of resonates with me. And I just thought of that particular experience. We had people.

Jake Lloyd 11:38
That's that's so interesting. So you saw the starting point as encouraging people to imagine any new possibilities in the new vision. Pranaya, I want to come to you very shortly. But Erin, what Oscar said there in terms of your experience of working with organisations on psychological safety, is that the starting point you'd work with in visiting, envisioning a different future, or would you start with something different?

Erin Lloyd Rotich 12:14
I actually loved Oscar's story because dreaming is a really scary idea. Right. So asking people to believe that there's something else possible kind of demands that you have a safe environment. So I love what he did, which is taking them to see that it's possible. Right. The belief had to be there. So psychological safety is a belief first and then the possibility is there and they can actually start to talk about that such a beautiful story. Thanks for sharing, Oscar. You can start really anywhere with psychological safety. I tend to start I think about the leaders as Oscar was talking about. You know, there was some doubt there because they imagined that they had privilege. And so I'm sure part of what he does as well is makes himself known to people, is vulnerable about his own beginnings with people. So I tend to start with leaders. I think leaders influence the culture the most. And I ask that they're courageous and they're vulnerable with their own stories. I think that really helps. And again, I'll go back to that, his idea of dreaming and picturing a better future is also a great way to start. It's just really vulnerable to ask people to do that because dreams are scary. Yeah.

Jake Lloyd 13:35
Hmm. Pranaya, yeah. You're you're a leader with an enormous amount of experience with leading churches and NGOs and you talked about this community, community work. What areas just sat there? Does that resonate with you and your experience of your work?

Pranaya Chhetri 13:56
Yes, absolutely. I think that is more kind of, you know, a psychological aspect of, you know, starting with visiting. But, you know, from our side, what we do at the beginning is, you know, they already mentioned in my introduction, we have discussed and come to mobilise and process. You know, this is also a psychological environment which we are explicitly in our Third World countries, you know, heavily dependent upon foreign funds, heavily dependent on external support. So what we are trying to do is, you know, develop a community, develop our environment, develop a culture where that dependence is not there. So what we start doing is, again, start with the same envisioning approach, you know, envisionining them based on biblical foundations and what we call is 'sangsani'  is kind of approach that means that working together with the community. So something happens when people in a church read the Bible together and hear what God is saying to them about their needs and how to solve them practically with local resources so that their families and church are strengthened and they become solid and light in their communities. So it did start with vision, you know, taking them to a journey together with the community. So that's what I feel at this point.

Jake Lloyd 15:22
We've touched on culture here. Pranaya, you've taught us about the obstacles in Nepal of a donor dependency and a donor sort of beneficiary mindset. I'm curious to know if you are trying to overturn this culture you talked about, do you start small? Do you start by help working with people to identify smaller problems to overcome? Or can you give us some examples?

Pranaya Chhetri 15:51
Absolutely. Thank you. Yes, some for example, I can give you know, it's a long process. I mean, in a sense, it takes almost 2 to 3 years when we start in a slowly training. But to give example, you know, we were training one church, you know, how to identify problems in surrounding communities. You know they do all this kind of, you know, what we call in our NGO language project cycle management. But it's very simple way to make a map of, you know, their community. Where are the problems, where are the issues and prioritise them, you know, this small thing they can start. So, you know, it was quite amazing, you know, that it was kind of in the hill area. So they had to drive down to come to the cities or market area. Every day they were working in those it is, but they never saw the needs. There wasn't one big factory where, you know, many people from far in remote areas, they come and stay almost for, you know, six month or so and do hard work right from early from till 3 a.m, 4 a.m, to hold their, you know, and their kids were there all wandering here and there without education. But when we went through this process, you know, their eyes opened and they identified their needs. They started training these children, educating these children, you know, the trusts and volunteers in those big factors. You know, they were living in small huts and helping them in education because now their education has been messed up. And there are so many examples like this. So it is a non principle. We want them to identify themselves so that, you know, they prioritise. And as you said in the question and we also start this with at family level, you know, first it starts with family level, then what can you do in the child and community? So I just give one example. This told me about the community, how they start reaching in the area of educating the children.

Jake Lloyd 17:53
It's great. Thank you, Pranaya. I'm interested, Erin, Pranayaand Oscar will, Pranaya, it sounds like you travel around a bit, but Oscar, you're based at this community centre working with young people on an ongoing basis. And it sounds like you often do something similar. But Erin, your work would be being invited into an organisation and running a training and things like this. I just wonder, you know, we talk about culture change. It's not like you do one course and the culture changes. It's an ongoing thing. I just wonder, when you run these trainings with people on psychological safety, what kind of things you do in order to try and make sure that these things become embedded and lasting.

Erin Lloyd Rotich 18:45
Such a good question. But you need a combination of different things, right? You need to change your routines a bit. So you need to have some sort of routine where people are talking honestly about what's going on with themselves and the problems that they see. A lot like what Pranaya was saying right. And you need to change in terms of how you approach people. Something I love. He was saying a core concept of psychological safety is curiosity. So it's key to change your perspective from investigation to curiosity. So investigation assumes kind of that there's something negative there and we just have to figure it out and keep moving. Right. Curiosity says what's possible. There's probably a good reason that that's happening, but what's possible. So, for example, you know, all of those kids are there instead of just looking at them and saying, okay, I guess the people that are working in that industry just have to bring their kids and they just have to sit there. What's possible for those kids? So I really appreciated that. So a lot of it is trying to bring that curiosity in. And then in terms of how do you build that again, I would say it generally starts with leaders and helping them to build better routines and better practices. But the other good news is that vulnerability is contagious. Curiosity is contagious. So once one key person starts to do that, it really shifts how people think. That's something you heard in Oscar's story as well.

Jake Lloyd 20:26
That's so interesting. What about so one thing that's coming to mind from you guys speaking, each of you speaking, actually, is that I would imagine when we're talking about a change of culture, whether it be in a church in Nepal, in a youth centre in Nigeria or in an organisation in the US, people become quite set in their ways. And we're talking about. Erin, you're talking about working with leaders where Oscar working with young people who are perhaps reluctant to see things in a different way to what they normally have seen. Do you think or have you experienced having to have difficult conversations with people and challenging their thinking and thinking that's been embedded for a long time. How have you gone about having those conversations? Oscar I'll put that question to you first. You gave an example at the beginning of this young person who said, Don't tell me to dream because I'll only end up disappointed. What did he what did he say in that situation?

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 21:35
You know, it's our own cultural here is you want to look for the culprit is responsible rather than being curious about the opportunities lying within a particular problem. So we have tried to move the young people because over and over we've had young people who just don't want to dream. They don't want to see the possibilities and opportunities that could be lying there within a problem. So what we have tried to do is to sort of shift that tension from trying to find a culprit because truly and really when you look at our own problems, particularly in the developing world, the truth is leadership is a failure of leadership. You find many other factors linked to why we are where we are, why poverty and all of those things. But we have constantly pointed the young people to rather than focus on who is the culprit, let's get the culprit and punish them. Why not focus more on what are the opportunities within this problem? And I give you an example. At some point in time, there was a strike in the city where I work, and this massive strike led to the fact that the government agency responsible for clearing the debt and the waste in the city centre was on strike. And for weeks this whole thing became a mess. But, you know, it offered a couple of young people the opportunity to sit down and think about it and focus on who is the culprit, who is responsible. Now, the first step to solving that problem was not to find ways responsible, but it was forced to sit down and look at what opportunities are there. And conversations started going on. And we discovered that for things like the banners that are usually some of the events, what can we do with them? And that was where our first quick win project came from. Young people started pulling them all, turning them into shopping bags, and that was a problem. But I don't focus on who is the culprit. We started on covering what opportunities and like I said, we the curiosity of what opportunities would be lying there within this same problem. And that's what we keep doing. All we keep trying to do with young people who don't want to dream, we offer them the fact that when you dream, you see the opportunities that are lying there in the problem and how you can take it, take all of such an opportunity and convert it into a better life for yourself. So that that's sort of an example of what I can share with what we how we respond. We shift the attention from the culprit to begin to think of how to uncover opportunities within the problem.

Jake Lloyd 24:53
I can imagine when people start to see the sort of a different approach to looking at problems and seeing people embody this, this culture that we're talking about, that it can become quite infectious. The people see it and think, oh, we can get involved in this. Oscar, I wonder if you've seen that in your youth work.

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 25:30
We see eating through part of the coin with inside. Yes. You see quite a number of young people getting interested and wanting to also rise up and do something similar within their own context. I agree. It's sort of it's contagious. However, we also see we see the flipside, which is some people would rather want to oppose the change or oppose the idea of one program. So, in fact, when we started, we were expecting to see people embrace this whole idea of young people wanting to create change or problem. So but what came to us was discouragement. And the discouragement is coming from people that we, with expectation support us. And again, I would give you an example. We started this whole journey of wanting young people to think about innovating, looking at problems within their environment and innovating to solve it. And we approached a group of people that we were hoping should support us, and we wanted to host a youth and green jobs conference that's what we titled it. We talk to people and we approached these guys to say, okay, this is what we're doing, this is what we've done, but this is what we hope to achieve. And if we come or this conference and they said it's a very fantastic idea. We love what you're doing, but we would rather want you to just remove the youth from the title of the conference. Just leave it to us as Green Jobs Conference. But we were very deliberate about why we wanted it to be Youth and Green Jobs Conference, but because within our own context, like I said, young people are within the category of what they call the nerd category not engaged, not employed, and not educated. They failed. Why do you want to go that route? Why not just change it and do something different that would still take you to where you are? Achieve the same goal of sensitising people around green jobs and all of that. Now, this for me is the flipside, right? And these guys just jumping on this thing and supporting it and encouraging it, they would rather want to oppose it. So apart from which is a challenge, but because we remain resolute, why we wanted to do it, why we wanted it to be youth and green jobs, then down the line, these people are coming back to say, we want to support this idea. So yes, it can be contagious, but sometimes it will have to go through faces of adversity or rather faces of obscurity. Then you would have adversity. Some people commit to walk again, say, before you even have that face of celebrity, if I can call it that. Because when we started, there was it was obscure. What are these guys trying to do? This is strange. Young people are known to do drugs and to do that. Why are you people trying to change the narrative? Then we now have people coming to oppose it, which is some sort of piece of advice to then. Now we're at the phase where it's almost like people want to celebrate us, but we didn't get from it. We didn't just jump off, you know, from the beginning and we got here. So it can be contagious. But sometimes you would face opposition and you have to stand your ground and believe what you believe because it's the belief that would help you run with this idea and with this vision and with this problem solving framework that you have when you don't hold what you believe, people would fight it and you would end up not infecting anybody or the person.

Jake Lloyd 29:32
That's so interesting. I wonder. That sounds like a, you know, an obstacle this opposition from some people to what you're trying to do. I wonder if I could ask Erin and Pranaya what you guys have seen as well. What is the biggest obstacle in your experience to creating this culture? Pranaya I'll ask you that first, and that's all right.

Pranaya Chhetri 29:58
Thank you. I think it is you know, example was quite interesting. I was thinking of a similar thing. You know, when we talk about infectious, you need to host, you know, it doesn't happen automatically. So and there's a very clear role we need to play. You know, when we started to do this non directive and non funding approach in a capacity building approach, vision giving approach, we started just with the 15 churches piloting them. I know with 3D nominations, you know, and if we see now and it goes, you know, we have noticed almost 600 judges with 92 minutes and many requests. People are coming submitted objects. And at the beginning, I would say, is to break that culture, which you are talking about in a culture of dependency. You know, culture, you know, which we also have developed, you know, in the NGO world, what project, you know, with all these different locked frames, you know, different planning process. So I think we have getting that, you know, obstruction on that approach. So when we provide the vision and when we work with faith leaders, you know, it's more a biblical based, you know, vision for better future, vision for a holistic change. Holistic transformation is what is needed so many times. Even the leaders, you know, some of the leaders, those who have been there for a long time, those things might be obstacles. So I'm not against any leaders, you know, but you know, something that's happened because the way you are brought up, the way you are schooled, you know what the your worldview matters. But to solve that obstacle, I think you need to work with some gatekeepers within that maybe same denomination or church, that community who can really take this forward, you know, so work with those, you know, gatekeeper. So we have been doing that and quite successful so far and lots of demand we're getting. So that is what I feel, you know, sometimes the host is needed, which really gives that vision, you know, takes that forward. I know, a little bit extra, you know, support or extra vision we need to give.

Jake Lloyd 32:11
And with those gatekeepers, how do you go about working with them? You know, do you need to inspire them? Do you need to build a relationship with them? How do you what do you do to excite them about what you're talking about?

Pranaya Chhetri 32:27
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Very good question. Because, you know, the ID, the gatekeepers is first to what we do is, you know, when we have this vision seminars or in visiting conferences at work. So what it was we we we identified those were very much passionate interested to take this forward. Then we start, as you said, you know, building relationships with them and giving them extra capacity, building extra training, you know, joining together with them rather than leaving them. So, you know, that is how I think which we need to do. You know, main thing is to have passion and vision within them which will lead them forward. So working together after we identify them, that is what I feel.

Jake Lloyd 33:15
And thanks Pranaya. Erin, I'd like to come to you. You know, I've known you for a little while and I think it was bring it just to a different and interesting perspective to any pretty much any subjects. I just wonder what, if anything, what, what, what the key things that have been missing from this conversation so far that are there particular things you're thinking? Right. We really need to address this when it comes to creating a culture problem solving manner.

Erin Lloyd Rotich 33:46
Well, let me summarise what I'm hearing so far, because actually the personhood of Pranaya and Oscar is what brought their culture change to happening. So it's funny. It's like you're asking the actual people who have done the culture change to think about how they've done it. So from the outside side, it's so interesting because what I hear is culture. How we usually define culture right at an organisation is this is how we do things, right? That's the simple way when you hear people say, this is how we do things. They're talking about culture, the culture of how things are done. So when anyone comes and says let's do things a new way.

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 34:25

Erin Lloyd Rotich 34:26
It's scary, right? It goes against how people want to act. And that's where you get that resistance. Oscar was talking about. Pranaya talked about that, too. So it takes persistent, courageous people like Pranaya and Oscar to push those boundaries and then create a sort of safe space. If it's for youth with Oscar, if it's for the church leaders with Pranaya to then dream and say, oh, actually there's a different way possible. But you see, they created that themselves. They were the kind of the culture pushers. And so they had to internally kind of stick to their purpose, stick to their persistency and their courageousness in a way that maybe the other people around them weren't quite doing. So it's actually them. You're talking to the change makers on this podcast. So it's really been interesting for me to sit back and hear them be those key people.

Jake Lloyd 35:24
So that's really interesting. So I think both Oscar and Panetta, you both seem like quite charismatic people to me. And I can imagine, you know, if I lived in your community, worked for your organisation, were involved, I would be I would listen to things that you guys said and think, right, yeah, I'm going to follow them. How important. Erin, I'll put this question back to you. How important do you think a charisma tech leader is to create and culture change then?

Erin Lloyd Rotich 35:58
Yeah, I mean, it's I would say you have to pair it right? So you have to pair charisma, which is that thing that kind of acts like a magnet to people, you know, brings people to the conversation, says, okay, I'll listen to this guy exactly what you said. You have to pair charisma with someone who's going to really be persistent and do the work. And that's the uniqueness that I hear in both of them, right? You can't just have a kind of a false charisma of like, listen to me, but I'm going to have other people do it or listen to me. But I haven't really been through this challenge myself. I don't really know where I'm coming from. See, the wonderful quality of both Oscar and Praneeth is that they've walked the walk themselves and they have that sense of charisma or kind of magnet ness to them, whatever we want to call that. So it's both. It's both and.

Pranaya Chhetri 36:51
Mmmm. So sorry for interrupting, because I think I really liked it. And it has mentioned you know, about courage and charismas, and I just like to give you an example. You know, as I mentioned that we started the 15 judges piloting because before that we had been working with so many leaders, so many judges. You know, this was a small start. So even after that, you know, we worked with one local partner for almost, I would say, four years and we saw the result. But one day this I know the leader of this organisation comes and says to me, you know, I know it's been very difficult without giving any incentive or giving any money to the project, you know, can we do something in to support something for the community or for the people or incentives, something like that. So, you know, that's why, you know, at every mention, you know, the courage is needed. So I was, you know, really passionate about this work and I know that it works. And I said, you know, see, I have so many ideas, so many ways of working. And I really said, you know, if you think, you know, there is clothing, there are hundreds of doors, God will open, then if you want to do it, then go ahead. That's lots of opportunities, you know. Now lots of grist is coming. So why didn't you try it? You know, he was doing this, you know, giving reasons of garment approvals and all this problem because it's mostly capacity building for, you know, there's no anything tangible stuff you can see with the money you give. But, you know, when I said that, you know, he went back and the organisation is now we are working together with them really skilled up, you know, with the three my former denominations and with other networks, you know, other three networks. And this year, they're really going to scale it, scale up the work. So I think this is where you need to really join together, challenge them and be courageous, associated up. Thank you.

Jake Lloyd 38:53
No, no, don't apologise, Oscar. I'll come to you. So, I mean, do you want to pick up on anything that's been said there about leadership and charisma or follow up on? So what, Alastair, and just then about what's missing in this conversation? Well, we're talking about creating a culture of problem solving.

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 39:13
I mean, just to appreciate, Erin, for those kind words, sometimes you never know what you're doing until you just get to sit with professionals like Erin. That's sort of analyses and gives you the frame and, you know, the template because again, sometimes for some of us, we just do it on the job and it's it just comes very spontaneously. And I would say really, I totally agree with Erin about courage beyond just being charismatic about courage. Because when we started the journey of sort of inspiring these young people, we had some very charismatic young people within the leadership because the movements thought that we with 50 initial core group members, now we're supposed to, you know, trigger the whole movement and inspiring young people. And we had really amazing, charismatic people among us. But I discovered that charisma alone could not take some of them. Some of them had to leave. And it's because they were fearful and because challenging context, challenging a culture, challenging them that has been there many years before. You wouldn't bond It's scary. And I, I don't think a good leader is one who does not have doubts that I mean, I have my doubts. Some days I wake up like, is this really what I want to do? But I think courage is the antidote to doubt and just the willingness to feel that openness, feel and I think it was on one of the episodes on I look at that I had feeling forward, you know, that I'm feeling backward. And it was after the whole conversation we had I went through some of the podcast yet that I discovered that one of the secrets of changing it you could call culture is being open to failing, but failing forward is what makes you change the context. I mean, we have done a couple of projects that I feel we've engaged the couple. We did a replication project around Nigeria. Only one group sustained itself in the north eastern part of Nigeria and the youth movement. They are doing amazing stuff there. But I think what Jeff, was this very openness to feel rather than being afraid to fail and a lot of those charismatic guys for many, they didn't want to feel the you don't want to have anything that shows that they have failed in their life. And since then, when we're recruiting young people to be part of the centre, the question we ask them is, have you failed before? And they are always shocked. And, you know, because of the religious mindset we have here, sometimes it's difficult to acknowledge that failure is part of the learning process. So some of them, when you say have you failed before, they say, God forbid, they say God forbid. But what we've discovered that over the years, those who have failed and have not stayed down, but they have tried to gain, they are the best leaders that they are the kind of leaders that can cause change, that can create change and shift the culture or those who are fearful and afraid to feel. It's always very difficult to make a shift in culture because it's scary.

Jake Lloyd 43:19
We've pretty much run out of time, unfortunately. Oscar That was fascinating. I just I would love to just ask each of you before we go. I often like to ask people to share a lot of practical tips for anyone listening to this who's been inspired by it or encouraged by it, and wants to put something into action. Now, whether it be in their, you know, their neighbourhood or their family or the workplace, you know, whatever is what's a good practical tip, what's a good starting point for creating this culture? And I can ask you first, I think.

Pranaya Chhetri 43:54
Yes. Three things I would like to mention at the end be persistence, you know, and the second thing is to be stick in the vision, never get alone. And with obstacles. And the final thing is to believe in your destination. You know, where you want to go and move on that. So that's what I feel, you know, when we are thinking about problem solving. Thank you.

Jake Lloyd  44:22
Thank you.

Fwangmun Oscar Danladi 44:23
So for me, I would simply say that there are three is first is to avoid thinking too much about the problem. But looking at the possibilities of solution in the problem. And then the second is so avoid looking for the concrete but rather focusing on the benefits of what your solution will bring. And then lastly is to just attain your dream, because sometimes problems you give us the opportunity for the dream. So you avoid thinking too much of the problem. Avoid looking for the culprit, and then, you know, sort of achieve your dreams through problems. These three things inspired a lot of them call them out of our own experience.

Jake Lloyd 45:24
Thanks, Oscar. Erin, I'm going to give you the final words. It was you talking about psychological safety that inspired this episode. So any practical tips you want to share, but also just any closing remarks in general? Take it away.

Erin Lloyd Rotich 45:40
Yeah, so good. I've been really inspired myself by this conversation, so thank you. I would just say I'm reflecting on that last thing that Oscar was talking about, which is that that failing forward idea. And on the overall tone of this conversation, which has been a lot about courage and those are key concepts here you kind of need they go together, right? You have to have courage to make mistakes, to take big steps, to dream. Right. And so I would say to you, do whatever it takes to do that first big step, the first risk. So if you see something you've been thinking about something a long time in terms of a solution to a problem, or you've been even just concentrating on the problem and how it annoys you, right? Take that first big step, that first risk, and see what happens. If it's failure. Good. That pushes you forward, right? Yeah. So I would just honour what they've said and, and echo that I'm inspired and I want to do something myself.

Jake Lloyd 46:45
That was Erin Lloyd Rotich, who's trained people in psychological safety. Before that, you heard here from Pranaya Chhetri from Nepal and also Fwangmun Oscar Danladi from the Jos Green Centre in Nigeria.

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